Update: This story has been DUGG (but is not yet 'Scaped).
Update2: Looks like the story has been killed on DIGG--go figure. :-)
OK, it's on. :-)
On the latest DIGG Nation (minute 8), Digg co-funder Kevin Rose goes on a massive attack of my plans to hire a dozen top social bookmarkers, but he doesn't seem to have a point about it. I'd actually be interested in hearing what he thinks about paying folks to do social bookmarking, but instead he just personally attacks me.
This is a serious discussion and I'm saddened that Kevin has reduced it to personal attacks. At the very least he could have a serious discussion about it *AFTER* he attacks me.*
Also, Kevin has some facts wrong:
1. The top DIGG users have not changed that much over time.
2. The top DIGG users are not responsible for 14% of stories--they are responsible for over 50%.
Also, the truth is that DIGG, REDDIT, Newsvine, Delicious, and Netscape will all succed together. There are very few winner-take-all verticals on the Internet. There are 3-5 major players in email, IM, and search--no one owns 80-90% of a market. It really isn't about Netscape vs. DIGG... in reality the battle is "social news vs. top-down news." Kevin and I are brothers in arms right now and at some point I hope he will realize that.
The top ~50 members on these services are responsible for over 50% of the top stories--that's a straight up fact and Kevin knows it. That seems to scare the heck out of him, and it shouldn't. I've created a market for these users, and others are about to jump in and do that same (I know this for a fact). So, if there is gonna be a market for community leaders, why not just join the party Kevin? You raised a ton of money and you can raise more. You're making money from advertising and you can easily afford to pay the top 12 users $1,000 a month each--share the wealth dude! Why not carve out 10-20% of your revenue for users?
It only makes sense that folks should be paid for community leaders.
Kevin Rose is going to make millions of dollars (perhaps tens of millions) when he sells DIGG to Yahoo (my best guess). When he does sell DIGG--and trust me it will be sold before in the next 12 months--he will have done it on the backs of those top 50 members. Those top 50 members will get exactly... ummm..... nothing. If I was running Netscape as a startup I would create a bonus pool for these users in the case the site gets bought. I can't do that given our structure, so we're gonna just pay folks. Kevin should do something similar.
* For those of you entrepreneurs watching make a note: you know you're winning when the debate when the other side opts out of the logical discussion and moves to personal attacks.
** Update: A considered story on the issue here--I wish Kevin would take this issue seriously and discuss it like Jay does.
Kevin Rose cracks (or "how to know when you've won the debate")
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Reader Comments
(Page 1 of 2)2. I certainly thought it was odd when Kevin said that the top users change and rotate. I haven't seen that in the least...the top users page is pretty much the same people just shifting around the page - still, all the same users.
Posted at 3:51PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Andru Edwards
4. Hasn't anyone seen Newsvine? They share revenue with their social bookmarkers/authors/whoevers that get lots of traffic and post lots of stories. Why is everyone making so much stink over something that was invented months ago?
Posted at 4:09PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Ryan Price
5. You have totally nail it. Kevin is definately loosing the debate by getting personal. Also I simply cannot understand what the fuss is about. In any other media nobody would be suprised that the people contributing get paid for their work. Do people really think that the journalists on any paper work for free? I mean jeeze!
Just grow up. Wake up and smell the coffee this is a business - treat it like that. Or maybe Kevin wants to give Digg away to Yahoo when the time comes. Oh no I dont need money... I just did it for free.
So stop pointing fingers and crying just because somebody are paying people for their work.
Posted at 4:22PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Kasper Retvig
6. Jason, you're WAY TOO reactive about this whole fiasco regarding paying submitters. It makes you look unsure of what you're doing. Rose criticized you on his wayne's world drinking-fest show. Big f-ing deal. Let it go. Your weblogs, inc. shills will support you here, but despise you on your own digg-clone project.
You're only blogging b/c your PR stunt was losing steam and you need to blow it out of proportion to bring light to the subject again.
Posted at 4:40PM on Jul 25th 2006 by the truth
7. I haven't had a chance to listen to the Diggnation episode, but I do agree with Jonathan Brown. If people are good at what they do and enjoy doing it, then nothing could be better than to be paid for such. I think the idea of social bookmarking is still in its infancy and as one of the drivers of the movement (along with many other sites, but Digg is pretty well known among them), Kevin is feeling threatened by an idea that is being considered as radical to the industry. Being paid to surf the Internet finding sites that might potentially be of interest to other people is a dream job for those of us who spend a considerable amount of time in front of our computer doing humdrum throughout the day.
Posted at 5:20PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Ariston Collander
8. He was drinking. And he was joking.
I thought he made some valid points
Why don't you refute them here?
Posted at 5:26PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Bank Locater
10. I said it before and I will say it again. All of you web guys are still making WAY too much money off of your users to pay them a lousy 12,000 bucks. These are the people who will make you millions. If anything they are under valued at 30,000 a year. I know AOL has to pay the idiots who sit in the main campus in Dulles, VA but come on.
Note, that was not a personal attack. Jason you got to admit there are a bunch of idiots running around in Dulles. If there were smart people running the show, AOL would have launched high speed service in 1998 instead of wasting money on 13,000 dollar plasma screens so the programers in the AOL TV department could play Quake 2 on them. They weren't even very good shots either.
Hell, I'll give you your crappy 12 k a year if you have a KICK ARSE incentive program. Reward the top 10 posters with serious cash, stock, whatever.
Oh and just for the record I am not a web professional, nor was I ever laid off, fired, or whatever by AOL so I am not upset about amateurs getting paid to do the work of a pro. I do think people should be treated fairly. If one of your "navigators" is responsible for over 20 percent of your site's impressions, or whatever the hell they are calling eyeballs on ads these days, then he should be compensated for it.
But I get the sick feeling that you consider his talent expendable. The talent pool is so large now that hell, even if he is 20 percent of your site, you can afford to let him go and he'll be replaced by some other nobody who will think gee 12k is great. Meanwhile you bank millions, and these folks do ALL the work.
Is what you are doing better than giving out free tshirts, yes. Does it give you the license to get on your high horse and declare yourself the champion of the little guy, no. You are still just a big business suit who exploits others with talent to make big money. Is that evil? No, but its kinda slimy.
You are a very talented person Jason. You have the ability to walk the line between high risk and proffit better than many of the .com folks. But that doesn't make you a good business leader. It makes you a shark, and your business behavior does not point you towards a cool shark like in Jaws 1. I'm talking lame like Jaws 3d shark. Ugh.
toodles.
Posted at 5:51PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Matt
11. Jason,
I certainly respect your views; certainly have a valid point. You are certainly right about the whole personal attacks aspect. Interesting theory on the future of Digg and their top users.
BTW - I've 'Scaped it.
http://tech.netscape.com/story/2006/07/25/kevin-rose-challenges-calacanis-on-paid-social-bookmarking/
;-)
Posted at 6:03PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Joseph Manna
12. There is room for both business models - as a so-called, top digger - it would be nice to get extra income to SURVIVE in the world !
After all, the 1000+ Submissions have helped MANY MANY MANY Companies get noticed - ---- BUT, the almost 100 HOMEPAGE submissions have REALLY helped COMPLETE strangers all over the world, who will NEVER know you enough to even say Thank You!
http://digg.com/users/SearchEngines/homepage
Posted at 6:27PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Search Engines
13. Jason,
Let me start off by saying that I'm a big fan of digg. With that being said I'm completely on your side with what you're trying to do here. As much I like digg I have no personal attachments and I'm having fun watching this all go down. I think what you're doing is very slick (in a good way) and agree with almost all your points.
I just watched the episode of diggnation and didn't really think it was all that bad what they said about you. In fact they had a few good points that you should consider. The design and the UI on Netscape are horrible. I've tried to give Netscape a fair chance but it's just so painful to use. I would suggest throwing down $100k to improve the design/usability on Netscape. I'd be happy to recommend a few brilliant guys for the job, people that I have first hand experience with.
I've also noticed that your presence on Google is not what it should be, when I type in 'Technology News' or any 'blank News' I don't see Netscape, but I should. Digg has done a fantastic job with SEO and I guarantee they're pulling in loads of traffic because of it.
I'm pulling for you and would love to see you make Netscape a big success.
Best,
Cameron
14. C'mon, are you gonna take Kevin "take the easy road" Rose serious?, the guy does a podcast from others contributions, has a relationship with Alex A. just for his own good and he never wrote a line of code of the digg engine, can't you see the pattern yet?.
Jason at least wants to share with those that help him grow, what has Kevin done for anyone?, short answer: ZILCH, ZERO, NADA!!!!!.
And the Yahoo deal is waaay closed, I don't know what is is really holding digg to break the news.
Posted at 8:43PM on Jul 25th 2006 by KevinRoseIsMyBitch
15. Jason, while your points may be valid check and make sure that the story actually is off Digg before you make accusations as of 6:46pm on the 25th the story was on the front page of Digg
Posted at 8:47PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Renegade Barista
16. Mad props to the people who read what I have to write:
It's absolutely amazing how you've taken this out of proportion and destroyed any type of business respect you had going. Kevin created Digg.com with the help of programmers and friends, making a site run by the people and for the people. He has to pay server costs and employee fees for keeping that popular site up and running all day long, yet it's the people who submit the links which help make people come back for more and more.
You're saying that Kevin should give back to those who submit? How about upgrading the site features, keeping it up and going 24/7, great user features and web 2.0 style. He created this thing, so let him get rich off of it. If people feel cheated about not getting paid for submitting so much, then you know what, they can stop submitting.
Kevin simply made a portal for people to voice their opinions, share links and open up the world for everyone to see. Damn right he should get paid millions and he doesn't have to share a damn thing with anyone. What about everyone that watches TV? Shouldn't the television makers get a kick back for DVD sales and TV revenue, since they provide a, what's that magic word again, portal for people to learn of the world around?
What am I saying? Shut the hell up and stop trying to make Kevin look like a bad guy for not doing what you're doing. He's keeping it open and free.
The nerve of some people... go stuff yourself in your million dollar home and stfu n00b (sorry sooo wanted to say that)
Posted at 8:54PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Clayton Zaugg
17. It appears your site suffers an identity crisis. Digg is based purely on free, community submition where all benefit by sharing articles (and more).
Your site features editorials and believes in rewarding some who submit the most. If people view your site as a contest like that they will simply dislike other users shattering any semblance of a web community.
That's not the main problem, you take money from the workers at Digg by copying them.
Posted at 9:08PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Phoenix
18. I'm not sure that you can even mention Netscape in the same sentence as digg. Digg is far better. *clap* way to copy jason, way to copy *clap*
Posted at 9:12PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Sean
20. I'm not biased towards Digg or Netscape, but how can you clone something and then say it will survive together with it? You write Netscape will survive with Digg, but I dont think theres any site which survives with its clone.
I say get a more original idea.
Posted at 9:25PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Marc
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1. Man, does that mean I have to start listening to DiggNation again? On a serious note, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. The best career advice anyone can give you is find what you like/love to do and find a way to get paid for it. I don't understand the breed of person that does the cool-hunting anyway. Time is money.
Posted at 3:51PM on Jul 25th 2006 by Jonathan Brown